Agency of the Year Poll
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Before beginning this site a handful of months ago, it would have been difficult for us to choose a Colorado agency of the year – simply because we weren’t privy to a lot of the work going on here. Through the NDAC’s Denver 50 show, the Art Director’s show and our own reporting, we’ve learned a lot about this city over the last year and now have a concrete opinion who the agency of the year should be.
What’s your opinion? Click the word “comment” at the bottom of this post and tell us your choice for Colorado agency of the year and for national agency of the year and give us the reasons why. Voting will be open through December 31, then we’ll report results on January 1st of next year, along with The Denver Egotist’s own selections.
Comments
M December 21, 2007
Colorado agency: Cactus
Colorado agency: Cactus (their body of work with tobacco prevention and the recent win and work on the lottery makes them a compelling choice)
National agency: Droga5 (simply because the tap project is so genius)
Matt December 21, 2007
Locally Factory did great
Locally Factory did great work for clients like Audi and Sony Pictures, won North Face, and landed in Communication Arts. Cactus is a very close second.
Nationally I’m going with Bartle Bogle Hegarty NY. Runner-up is a tie between StrawberryFrog and W+K. I may just be sliding W+K in there because their Old Spice spot with Bruce Campbell was so damn cool.
hack boy December 21, 2007
Locally, I would have to put
Locally, I would have to put my vote in for Cactus, though I question the strategic approach of the “Own your C” TV. Looking at their entire body of work over the past year, they have really done a fantastic job of putting out quality work. Great job guys.
Razz December 21, 2007
Yup, Cactus. Maybe Factory
Yup, Cactus. Maybe Factory second. I dont have a national choice.
Aero December 21, 2007
this is tough. there has been
this is tough. there has been some nice work this year from Cactus, Sukle, tda and Cultivator.
But then I think about an agency handling big, national and global brands and my compass immediately moves to factory. They just won The North Face. They do great work on Audi and other brands. They are the only local agency to get into CA and they dominated the Denver 50.
So, my vote is for Factory.
On a national level, Goodby has done some great work on the traditional and interactive side.
Christopher Cox December 21, 2007
I’ll just go ahead and put my
I’ll just go ahead and put my vote in for Cactus. From being on the actual Cactus creative team, I think we are about a fifth of the size of the overall Factory creative team, so to be a close second to Factory means we are outputting exponentially for our size. So I vote for Cactus and I am not ashamed to work for Cactus and vote for Cactus because we have busted our asses this year and I think we deserve it.
But hey, that’s just like my opinion man.
ddowner December 21, 2007
I cast my vote as the
I cast my vote as the anti-Cactus vote (-1). It seems like the only real piece of work they have to stand by is their anti-smoking campaign, which in my own opinion is questionable in its effectiveness. Not only that, the idea that they’re using a successful online site they didn’t even create (yet continue to get credit for), to gain a larger reputation in the advertising world, seems a little selfish. Just my opinion though.
As for my real vote, Factory. Hands down (and I work for a competing company). They continue to climb the ladder of success and gain one national account after another. They’ve created an agency that has been able to produce strong pieces of work in both the traditional and interactive fields without partnerships and outsourcing.
Mike King December 22, 2007
I’m going to separate myself
I’m going to separate myself from the places I’ve worked in the past year (tda and Factory) and cast my vote for Cactus.
As a whole, their work has been excellent this year. The latest ‘C’ TV campaign is particularly impressive. Hopefully, the bar will be raised again on the lottery account. I’ve spent some time there, and was really impressed by the culture, the atmosphere and the people of the agency.
Props to Norm and the whole crew.
Joe Conrad December 22, 2007
First off, thanks to The
First off, thanks to The Denver Egotist for doing its part to “help Denver suck less” –– it appears to be working and the candid discourse is refreshing. Since I started Cactus in 1990 the one thing I have heard over and over from every agency is town is that they want to break away from Colorado and truly become a national agency doing great work for big consumer brands. That is why I cast my vote for Factory. They’ve done it. Nice work Factory. You broke through and showed the way.
I also feel compelled to respond to what I believe is a really stupid observation from ddowner, whoever you and your competing agency are. Here’s the deal, Cactus works with world class production talent, from both within Colorado and all over the world, to bring our concepts to life. We do not print our brochures, we do not direct our TV spots, we do not record our radio spots, we do take our photography and we do not program our own Websites. That is why we take as much credit for our Websites as we do for our TV spots and every other piece of work that comes out of our agency. Ad Age just recognized our C-Tree spot as one of 2007’s Top Ten songs in a TV spot. Are we not supposed to take credit just because our agency doesn’t also sing and play instruments. What about Buck, the amazing animation shop that worked with our creative team to bring our concept and vision for C-Tree to life. Grow up and grab a clue on how great work is produced.
And if you think the only real work we have to stand by is for our anti-smoking client you have your head up your ass. Go to our site and you’ll see great radio, TV, print, outdoor, design and interactive for ALL of our clients. And if you don’t think our Own Your C campaign is effective go to ownyourc.com and check out the 30+ videos that have been made by teenagers in Colorado about making smart choices about not using tobacco. The TV spots are but just one piece of an integrated marketing campaign that also includes a new text-messaging cessation tool WE created that helps young people kick the habit.
Other Colorado agency’s producing inspiring work this year include Cultivator, tda and Sukle. I think Sukle’s “Use only what you need” campaign attains advertising Nirvana for its pure simplicity and effectiveness. On the national front, CP+B continues its reign as king.
Ron Mexico December 23, 2007
Mr Conrad,
“…30+ videos…”
Mr Conrad,
“…30+ videos…” Really. That’s it? The site’s been up for over a year, and your only answer to the strategic comment is 30 kids have posted a video. C’mon, you can do better than that. That’s a pretty mediocre result to rest the campaign’s success on. What else ya got?
Please don’t misunderstand me, I think it’s a highly innovative and creative campaign – all the tactics. But more important than the execution, are the results. You guys are into results, right? You should be. Ya know, something more than the pat-on-the-backs like FWA, SXSW and NDAC.
Since you opened the door, please give us some results that will make us proud something that creative came out of Denver — and most importantly is benefiting our 12-18 year olds.
palmerpolanski December 23, 2007
Vice stocks are popular among
Vice stocks are popular among many investors. Vice stocks are shares in companies that make their money in gambling, alcohol, adult entertainment or other “Over 18” activities like tobacco smoking.
Whether it is a cynical play on human weakness or a savvy wager that people will always put their money where their morals aren’t, there is an argument that you can’t go wrong betting on what makes people feel good.
Joe Conrad December 23, 2007
Hi Ron:
Thanks for the
Hi Ron:
Thanks for the follow-up question. I felt like my rant against ddowner was getting a little long-winded so I cut it short, but thanks for holding the door open. The Own Your C strategy has been questioned a lot on this site so I appreciate the opportunity to give everyone some more information about the campaign. And yes, we are very much into results. Here you go.
Let’s start with the bottom line. The teenage smoking rate in Colorado in 2004 was about 22 percent. Right now the teen smoking rate is about 15 percent, second lowest in the country. Since Own Your C launched we have had more than 500,000 unique visitors to the Website just from Colorado with about 14,000 teenagers registered as citizens of C-Ville. By the way, you left off about 10 other very prominent national and international awards the site has won. To set the record straight, we launched the video contest in November of this year, just one month ago, and we already have 30 entries. By the end of the contest deadline in January I bet we have at least 30 more. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get teenagers to do something, especially to make an anti-smoking video? Obviously you don’t have kids, or at least teenagers.
Here’s something else you and Colorado can be proud of. Fixnixer, the text-messaging cessation tool Cactus created t launched in March of 2007 has had 1,550 young people in Colorado use the service. Wyoming will be launching Fixnixer next year and currently 10 other states are seeking funding to add Fixnixer to their cessation programs.
And now for the strategy. Own Your C is not just an ad campaign, its goal is to become a social movement. Thanks to the “Truth” everyone knows that big tobacco only cares about big profit. But in the end, the decision to smoke does come down to personal choice. Sound familiar, that’s been the tobacco company defense strategy for decades –– “people have the right to smoke.” But as long as cigarettes are sold in convenience stores, the choice does reside in the individual –– right between their ears. Own Your C reminds people that the choices they make today define who and what they will become tomorrow. When you become addicted to tobacco, you no longer own your choice not to smoke. Get it.
Also, if we did TV ads about how bad smoking is for you, the 80 percent who don’t smoke would tune it out and the 20 percent who do smoke would resent you for preaching to them. We know, we researched it.
Tobacco is but just one health issue facing teenagers. Meth, alcohol, marijuana, prescription drugs, pre-marital sex, and obesity are all big problems today. Own Your C encourages young people to be aware of the decisions they make and the impact those choices have on their lives. “Make your own choices,” “Your choices create your world,” and “Be careful with your choices or they may come back to haunt you” are the primary themes of our TV and online campaigns. The campaign is even bigger than just tobacco. However, the C-Ride that travels the state, our promotions, events, school-based programs and Website turn the corner to tobacco and connect young people with innovative, anonymous, free and effective tools that help them quit smoking.
We also have news articles from around the state and a huge file of letters and emails from teenagers, parents, teachers, coaches, counselors and health officials from Colorado praising our campaign and the positive message it sends to young people.
Thanks again for giving me the opportunity to provide more background on our strategy and the results of the campaign to date.
Razz December 23, 2007
I take my Cactus vote back.
I take my Cactus vote back. Anyone that has to explain their work to this extent doesn’t deserve my vote. Plus, this guy seems like a real condescending douchebag.
I guess I’ll go with Factory, even though I agree with those that see the bulk of the work as ‘eye-candy’ and lacking substance.
thehugger December 23, 2007
Razz you just got schooled.
Razz you just got schooled. Your response shows your ignorance of what the business is all about. If you want to have an impact in this business you should read what Joe wrote again and absorb it. Joe did a very good job describing the results of their campaign. Impressive. Metrics are complicated I suggest you spend some time with someone in media who can go through these with you. To prove to your further lack of understanding of what is effective is you fire off a backhanded compliment at Factory.
Maybe you need to start an agency and show some very successful people how it’s done. Maybe you can land an Audi or The Colorado Lottery.
As far as a vote goes. Mine goes to Factory for their success landing are doing very nice work for some blue-chip clients. As always TDA created some nice work as well as Cactus. 2 years ago Cactus would have never been part of the conversation.
Nationally Crispin delivers work that impacts popular culture as well as what Goodby has done with Comcast. Cable spots sucked bad before Comcastic. 72 and Sunny had a great year as well.
Maybe Razz would like to point out some fake guerilla campaign that some client didn’t have to pay for from a couple of random freelancers with a silly name as great work.
Razz December 23, 2007
Not sure what you’re talking
Not sure what you’re talking about at the end there but my opinions are based on more than metrics and a glossy explanation of how decisions were made.
Bottom line is, I haven’t seen anyone from Factory on here defending their work or trying to justify tactics or design choices. To me, that’s lame and that’s why MY vote goes to Factory, which was my second choice to begin with. So, hugger, ya big AD MAN, ya big authority on ‘Successful Campaigns’, thanks for taking the time to point out the flaw in my logic, but you can take your timely education and stick in your well manicured bunghole for all I care.
Happy Holidays Everyone!
Hey Razz December 24, 2007
Hey Razz, do your
Hey Razz, do your homework…
Q: One of the biggest jabs at Factory Labs we often hear is that much of your work is all style with no substance. Can you address that comment by talking about style and how it relates to concept in your mind?
A: Our customers are buying style. Who buys a snowboard jacket because they like the concept of the jacket and never look at it in the mirror? The problem with the style vs. concept opinion is that it assumes that there is no idea to style. We don’t want ads to look like ads, we want them to have the vibe that will connect with the consumer and give the brand a personality. How many One Show pencils has Burton won? Are the judges their audience? Is that the measure of a great piece of advertising? Do they even understand the audience? The Burton work is brilliant. It built an industry. So when we look at an idea, it better have style to it that is culturally relevant and inspires. We do enter award shows, we believe they bring value to our agency and our people, but that can’t be the measure of what makes you great. You can’t say you’ve “arrived” because you’ve done well in that area. The goal is to have a great idea and execute it right – in tone, style and relevance. It would be an irresponsible idea not to.
—
Change your mind?
DDowner December 24, 2007
OMG, I love this site.
OMG, I love this site.
Harold Bak December 24, 2007
Hey Razz,
The reason why
Hey Razz,
The reason why there isn’t any representation from Factory on this site is that they’re too busy pulling wool. And getting last minute Christmas shopping done.
H
denverDesnr December 25, 2007
defintely the best work out
defintely the best work out of denver has come from fl-2 this year
bwell December 25, 2007
Spillt loves all of you:)
Spillt loves all of you:)
spazz December 25, 2007
Funny how these little forums
Funny how these little forums always get out of control with stabs and insults… I thought part of the point of this site was to better the creative community in Denver? Are we all so insecure we have to explain ourselves to some dick named ‘razz’? As for my vote I’m for Sukle. Factory’s a bunch of pussies!!!
Mister U December 26, 2007
“Are we all so insecure we
“Are we all so insecure we have to explain ourselves to some dick named ‘razz’?”
Yeah, that was his (Razz) point from the beginning. What comes across as weak minded and lame is the desperate explanations and justifications of things, especially in such an authoritarian manner. This is what Razz was pointing out and why he took his vote back (who cares). Then, he gets attacked and gets a ‘talking to’… hilarious.
Godzirra December 26, 2007
Oh… and how great it is
Oh… and how great it is this:
“Funny how these little forums always get out of control with stabs and insults… I thought part of the point of this site was to better the creative community”
“Factory is a bunch of pussies!!!”
Spazz December 27, 2007
Congrats Godzirra, on not
Congrats Godzirra, on not actually catching the sarcasm there.
flyonthewall December 28, 2007
The squeaky wheels are
The squeaky wheels are getting the grease. Seems like agencies with a lot of Egotist blog entries and Web sites showing off their wares get the love.
I find the Audi collateral win for Factory more eyebrow-lifting than North Face. You could put Patagonia, REI, or Jansport instead of North Face there and
it still feels right for this outfit. Audi, on the other hand, is a relationship that seems to get stronger and stronger. I am curious how (or if) they collaborate with VenablesBell, Audi’s brand agency for a year now. The JUMP stuff is very sweet and sugary.
Cactus is another getting many votes. I think it’s easy to ruffle their feathers when one says that anti-smoking efforts are all they’ve done. And if you look at how many awards and nods they received for Own Your C, STEPP at the 50 and ADCD show, it does eclipse their efforts for Children’s Hospital, Knudson, Blue Cross, among others. It will be of great local interest to see how the Lottery transpires over time. Hopefully many great things.
No one has mentioned TDA’s victory of Celestial Seasonings, a great bring-it-home win for an agency entering some not-so-familiar waters. On top of that, TDA’s work for 1% is nice. The design for Shrewd foods made CA. Some bike stuff made the Kelly finalist. They’re still rolling.
I guess I’m curious as to the criteria that makes “Agency of the Year”. Is it the size of an account win? An out-of-town win? A win not expected? Is it a traditional agency? An interactive agency? Are many local wins noteworthy? Or a few big national wins?
I’m tired of writing. For now. What have the quieter agencies been up to? Juice? Cultivator? Integer? Barnhart? ANyone else?
Just want to keep this cool conversation going.
jb December 28, 2007
If you go by award show
If you go by award show standards, TDA did very well this year. One Show, Kellys, CA (design this year, advertising in 2006). Sukle and Factory are the only other agencies that have made national award shows recently. And Factory is the only Denver agency that is handling national and global brands, and doing it quite nicely. However, maybe that doesn’t justify agency of the year.
But if you take it down to a local, hometown, “Denver” level and separate yourself from national award shows and clients, I have to go with Cactus. The new C spots are fantastic. The microsite is strong. And other work for clients is nice. Hopefully lottery (haven’t been impressed yet) is too.
Thus, I vote for Cactus. Keep up the good work fellas.
Gregg December 28, 2007
Factory. Sukle. Cactus.
Factory. Sukle. Cactus. Impressive work this year from all. I propose a merger of the three. Hereby dubbed “Fuktus.” Whattaya say, gents?
Taber December 28, 2007
Maybe I’m late to this
Maybe I’m late to this discussion, but I’d like to chip in, if I may.
Awards are certainly a measure of an agency’s performance, but I’ve seen many the award-winning agency whither on the vine and die. Others continually win awards but never grow (in many respects.)
It’s the agency that does solid creative work, breaks new ground for its clients and itself, and attracts new clients because of it that earn consideration for agency of the year from me.
By that standard I see Cactus as having moved beyond what it was to what it might be. It’s that kind of transformation, at least in perception, that deserves agency of the year.
Kudos to Factory for pulling in some impressive clients with catchy work as well. I’d like to see more from them that defines and builds brands.
Odd to me, that on a site dedicated to our sucking less, one can hear the whooshing sound of pettiness, personal attacks and negativity sucking the professionalism out of our community.
But that’s just me.
HBay December 28, 2007
I vote for Factory. Their
I vote for Factory. Their client roster and work (ie: Jump Mobile) are at a national, creative level. TDA and Cactus are tied for second. Sukle for third. Overall, I think it’s been a pretty good year for the local scene.
Lifter Baron December 29, 2007
Ah yes… Denver is so
Ah yes… Denver is so wonderful.
David Stone December 31, 2007
I’ve been away for over four
I’ve been away for over four years but coming back I’d have to say Sukle. Only because “Use Only What You Need” is the most conceptual campaign ever to come out of Denver. Period. It pushes the bar for thinking. And not just here.
I like TDA, too, always have. They never fail to keep Denver on the map—and they do it by staying true to themselves.
If working on national and global accounts gets you agency of the year then I know a lot of shitty shops who would get agency of the year. Working on big clients isn’t a big deal. Only here it is.
Massy December 31, 2007
“If working on national and
“If working on national and global accounts gets you agency of the year then I know a lot of shitty shops who would get agency of the year. Working on big clients isn’t a big deal. Only here it is.”
Wow, that sums it up perfectly. Well said David.
IHeartSmallFirms January 1, 2008
Somehow…Fuktus (said by
Somehow…Fuktus (said by Gregg) works… and I love it!
bc there are so many small to mid-size firms here that are doing killer work. But they are being outshown by the big 3 bc of size.
So guys, what smaller firms are doing good work?
David Stone January 1, 2008
Actually, I think they’re
Actually, I think they’re being outshone because of the work. Size has nothing to do with it. It’s all about the ideas.
I saw David Droga speak not that long ago when his shop only had like five or six people. Now he’s up to a staff of 40 or so—very small. Yet, he bagged Agency of the Year in Creativity. It will always be about the ideas and how you leverage your thinking to the benefit of your consumer, your clients and your shop.
aperson January 2, 2008
So one really good continuing
So one really good continuing campaign is the criteria for winning agency of the year? (As we know this great campaign is on it’s second year) My challenge is to David’s rationale is not a knock on Sukle, in fact far from it. Sukle is continually one of the best shops in the market (add Noodles to their list of strong work as well). David does agency growth, client wins, agency re-invention (like in the case of Cactus), or strength in other services such as media or interactive have any place in your assessment besides the creative output? One last observation, national accounts wins are important here as well as in any market. Read the cover of Adweek they announce national account wins daily, even for agencies in big markets like NY and Chicago.
Massy January 2, 2008
Noodles? I thought that was
Noodles? I thought that was Xylem…. You talking print?
aa January 2, 2008
the noodles brand belongs to
the noodles brand belongs to sukle and also totally rules. Xylem is responsible for the web site
David Stone January 4, 2008
The previous agency I worked
The previous agency I worked at won over a dozen new clients in a year with an average of probably 100 million in billings for each client. Does that make them a great shop? No.
Cactus wasn’t reinvented, it was invented. Norm has invented it much like Jonathan has invented TDA.
Yeah, one campaign, that’s all Sukle needed. They have more nice work but that one was the kicker.
The creative output is THE ONLY CRITERIA to consider. It’s an agency’s product.
Less ADWEEK more ARCHIVE.
aperson January 4, 2008
A great media plan and buy is
A great media plan and buy is not an agency product? Strong research and analytics aren’t an agency’s product? I guess we can tell CP+B, BBDO, Goodby, Fallon and Chiat that they don’t need those useless media departments. Maybe they could layoff all of their research people as well. All you need is a giant creative department creating great work and it will find it’s way to market on it’s own. If it then gets in Archive then it must have automatically been very successful for the client and achieved their goals.
Ask Cactus how important these other services were in their Lottery pitch. Maybe they guessed where to place the “C” campaign.
Agency of the year or Creative Department of the year?
Think bigger.
David Stone January 4, 2008
Nobody cares how Apple got to
Nobody cares how Apple got to the iPhone. They just care about the iPhone itself. You can’t think any bigger than the end product.
All the agencies you’ve mentioned became great off traditional media. Standard buys. It was the end creative product that made them great.
David Stone January 4, 2008
Ambient media. Viral.
Ambient media. Viral. Guerilla. Whole categories of advertising meant to supplement traditional media buys. And who do we have to thank for coming up with these ideas? Let’s not bash on the creative department so soon.
aperson January 4, 2008
let’s not disregard the
let’s not disregard the contributions of the other departments within an agency either. no bashing of anyone just handing out respect.
enough with “god” complex.
aa January 4, 2008
what happened to reporting
what happened to reporting the results of this survey on the 1st?
Massy January 4, 2008
God complex. Everywhere that
God complex. Everywhere that I’ve worked, the salesman were the most guilty of this offense. Douchebags.
David Stone January 5, 2008
God complex? Welcome to
God complex? Welcome to advertising. Ego is the main driver of this business. Everyone in Denver is humble because there’s no cash—work at shops where the ECDs are pulling in 2 million plus and you’ll see a vast difference.
As for my agency choice, I was just voicing my opinion. I wasn’t trying to convince anyone of anything—I wasn’t putting forth a rationale.
I agree, other departments contribute greatly in an agency. It’s a team effort.
creativemandenver January 5, 2008
….Everyone in Denver is
….Everyone in Denver is humble because there’s no cash…
wow…I think there are so many wanna be adv/design ‘rock stars’ in this city it’s pitiful….what we do is so irrelevant in the real world’s big picture, the egos in this business are really silly. Many creatives have such big egos its amazing to me…getting over themselves might help Denver’s situation.
ok…back to the ORIGINAL TOPIC:
MY VOTE: CACTUS
Brian Watson, a humble man, is a great guy and is worth his weight in great ideas. Joe scored big with his hire. Their ideas are so strong and complete, not to mention the execution is on a national level.
Mike King January 7, 2008
so who won it?
so who won it?
Christopher Cox January 8, 2008
I think we should just say
I think we should just say everyone’s a winner here then hold hands and hug because this was one brutal-ass list of comments.
MNDESIGN January 8, 2008
Hey All!
Has anyone factored
Hey All!
Has anyone factored in a human element to this competition? For example, How humane of a place is it to work? I have heard very bad things about Crispix Boxes + Porter. Like they work 80 hours a week for minimal pay. Isn’t that kind of counter to our cause here?
It would be AWESOME if there were another criteria here… does the group 1)promote from within, 2) invite feedback from an acceptable amount of sources withing the group? 3) Pay the group enough to enable them to buy the education neccessary to provide the work that delivers on point? And why haven’t we addressed the money element here? For example, What did an agency bid to get the project, Like: Yes, the work was great, but did they have to lay-off the tech support guy/girl to get there?
That being said, I really perked up for the conserve campaign, b/c its something my designer self and the masses can understand, yet they didn’t dumb it down. And I would also like to shout out Vermillion in Boulder, I have heard really great things about this company….
Thank you!!
Massy January 8, 2008
Good thought MND but I think
Good thought MND but I think to most of the industry types, ‘Agency of the Year’ is all about the work. The output. Maybe we should have a ‘best agency to work for pole in order to get these kinds of opinions. There is obviously a wide swing when it comes to work environment with places like CP+B and Xylem at the very bottom and Factory and Cactus toward the top. I’ve had the same gig for 4 years and I’m very happy with it but there seems to be a lot of movement in town lately (with at least two more people getting the axe yesterday from Xylem and all these poor bastards at McClain being laid off) so maybe a running score card for each major agency would help these folks make decisions down the line. Whataya think egotist?
Jeff January 9, 2008
That’s a great idea, Massy.
That’s a great idea, Massy.
I just moved back to Colorado and I feel like I’m in the dark when it comes to what the local agencies are like to work for, with the exception of Cactus, Factory, etc. because they’re talked about so much.
What about Vermilion? Moxie Sozo? Communication Arts? ArtHouse? Henry Gill? Ellen Bruss?
Obviously it’s impossible to run down every agency in town. But who’s doing great work AND is a great firm to work for?
There’s something to be said for the idea of dirty laundry being aired…if places know people are going to be honest about what it’s like to work there, it may force them to step up.
But, there’s also the fall-out from lies, rumors, confidential info, etc. being posted to consider.